Legal Rights and Advocacy for People with MCS with Lila Refaie.

Legal Rights and Advocacy for People with Multiple Chemical Sensitivity (MCS) with Lila Refaie.

In this episode of Footprints & Impacts, we are joined by Lila Refaie, Bilingual Staff Lawyer at the ARCH Disability Law Centre to discuss the legal challenges faced by individuals with Multiple Chemical Sensitivity (MCS). Lila shares her expertise on disability rights, including the legal protections available to people with MCS under the Canadian and Ontario Human Rights Act. 

We explore workplace accommodations and the importance of scent-free policies, as well as how the law can support those with MCS in overcoming barriers to accessibility and inclusion. Tune in for a deep dive into the intersection of disability law and environmental health, with practical insights on how individuals can advocate for their rights. This episode is also available in French, thanks to Lila's dedication to accessibility.

Transcript

welcome to Footprints and impacts the podcast where we uncover how the environment shapes our health and
0:06
well-being whether you're curious about how chemicals in your surroundings affect you or you're looking for
0:11
practical ways to live a healthier life you're in the right place brought to you by the Environmental Health Association
0:17
of Canada and the Environmental Health Association of Quebec this podcast shines a light on multiple chemical
0:24
sensitivity MCS the importance of healthy least toxic product choices and
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what what it means for those navigating this disability where over 1 million Canadians have a diagnosis of MCS we're
0:37
here to raise awareness offer resources for accessibility prevention and build a
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healthier inclusive community let's dive in and explore how our Footprints leave
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a lasting impact on our health and our planet so hi everyone welcome to
0:54
Footprints and impact I'm your host Marco and today we're diving into some really important
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conversations about disability rights specifically around multiple chemical
1:06
sensitivity MCS uh we're privileged to have Laya
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Rafi did I say that right with us today from Arch disability Law Center Arch has
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been a key player in disability rights in Ontario since 1979 fighting for justice and equality
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especially for people with disabilities who might be facing Financial challeng challenges today we'll talk about the
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work Arch does the legal support available to people with disabilities
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and the major issues with disability law that Laya and our team are tackling right now whether you're personally
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impacted by disability law or just curious to learn more about how disability laws applies to MCS there's
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lots to take away from this conversation so let's get into it Layla thanks for
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thanks for being here thank you so much much for inviting me to speak today it's
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always great to have uh to have great guests and uh I'm sure you'll bring a
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lot of insight to our guests and and our listeners so uh lla you've been engaged in this
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field for quite some time could you share how you first became involved in
2:21
human rights law and what inspired your focus on disability rights in
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Canada sure absolutely um essentially I've been from the start
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of my legal career um working in in more the broader social justice law um I
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started working in in a general Community Legal Clinic um in a small
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town in Ontario where the focus was a lot more on um what we call Poverty Law so uh
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that includes you know people um who are who are receiving social assistance for
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example um so that's where I started off and then through that work I was there for a
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number of years uh and simply wanted
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to to do a bit more um or take my career
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bit to the next level um and really focus you know more
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so on on disability law within you know the social justice aspect of of my focus
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and and that's when essentially I um applied to work with Arch disability Law
3:47
Center um and was essentially hired obviously um and um and I've been there
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since 2017 so uh so that's really what the focus was
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is really now more so about for me um
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and what really drove me to take that next step in my career is that um
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essentially you know Arch is what we call a test case Clinic um and what that means is that we
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not only do legal work to resolve individual
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cases but we we look at issues within the disability community and disability
4:35
law uh on a broader level and try to bring systemic changes um and really try
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to bring some changes within the system itself to to better um the rights of
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persons with disabilities across the province of Ontario that's great that's great thank
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you so much and um let's say Arch's mission right so Arch has been a a
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leader in disability rights in Ontario like I mentioned before since 1979 could you share a bit about the
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Clinic's Mission and how it's made such a big impact on ensuring Justice and
5:13
equality uh for people with disability especially those facing uh Financial
5:19
barriers yes absolutely so for for your listeners that that may not be aware um
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of who Arch is uh who Arch disability Law Center is I will say Arch just for shorts from now
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on but um essentially Arch is a specialty Legal
5:38
Clinic um we are based in Toronto but we have a provincial
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mandate um and because we are a specialty Legal
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Clinic in based in Toronto our our mandate is really focused into the
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province of Ontario um we do do work as well on the more National level uh but our main
6:02
focus is Ontario we are funded primarily by legal aid Ontario so um when we talk about
6:10
specialty Legal Clinic uh essentially our focus is on disability rights we
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assist persons with disabilities directly who are living in Ontario and
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um and about issues related to what they're experiencing in
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Ontario so part of of our mission is of course to to advocate for the rights of
6:33
of person with disabilities um and removing systemic barriers
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um and you know we do talk a lot about you know the rights of of all persons with disabilities because as well we are
6:47
primarily funded by legal aid Ontario we do also have that focus of of
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uh people who uh with disabilities who are also living under the poverty line
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or or near the poverty line so sometimes that brings in another different aspect
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or to to the additional barriers that they they may experience um we
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also try to achieve those systemic changes or or remove those systemic
7:18
barriers by providing awareness and education uh on the rights of persons
7:23
with disabilities um whether that's directly to the person the the community
7:28
of person with dis disabilities because they may not know their rights necessarily in all situations um but
7:34
also in situations where uh you know bringing awareness to to like members of
7:44
uh of parliament right whether that's at the Ontario government or if it's a federal issue with the federal uh
7:51
government as well so that that way we could bring some changes through there
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um and uh like I mentioned like we are really focused our work is focused with
8:05
issues that happen in Ontario but we do as well do some some more National work
8:10
uh at times um and and what I mean by that like we do some some federal work
8:16
in terms of for example Transportation um some some
8:21
Transportation issues are provincial or Municipal like buses or local buses um
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while while other types of Transportation issues are are federal right so that would affect um the rights
8:36
of persons with disabilities across the country such as your rights uh when you're taking VIA Rail train or when
8:42
you're taking an airplane um but again like we do start
8:48
off with someone with an issue that originated in Ontario right to to be able to to tackle that
8:55
issue um and we also you know do use a lot of international law as well when we
9:02
can uh such as the the convention on the rights of for persons with disabilities
9:08
or maybe some people may know it better by by the crpd so we do try to bring that in to
9:16
any of the work that we are doing um and yeah I think that's that's mainly
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you know what what really what what we work on uh we do focus on very specific
9:29
areas of law which are um informed by the communities by our communities of
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person with disabilities uh that they've essentially told us uh what exactly they
9:41
need us to work on right so yeah so it's like
9:46
they it's uh they come in they explain their situation and you guys find the
9:54
the right solutions for them right so it's uh it kind of shapes it self as it
10:00
goes yeah exactly exactly and more specifically too if I could go off from
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from what you you just mentioned like we do I mentioned this earlier we do a lot
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of test case litigation so we go to court we bring those we bring those big cases to make those changes we talk to
10:19
government um and we try to bring changes through through that way as well
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which is not always through a lawsuit or a litigation uh could be through you know policy
10:32
changes or trying to make changes in the laws that are already existing or trying to make to bring politicians to to
10:40
create new laws that are better for rights of persons with disabilities but more individually as well how we help
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our communities as well um is that we do also provide free legal advice to
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persons with disabilities in Ontario specifically about their issue so while
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that may not necessarily always be like this in a systemic manner but we do
11:03
those one-on-one calls as well um so that we could help persons with
11:09
disabilities you know um advocate for themselves as well in their particular
11:14
situations yeah that's uh it's amazing work that's for sure we need we need
11:20
more and more people like like you to to continue uh doing this work um Leela you
11:27
you mentioned you've been with Arch since 2017 and playing a key role in providing
11:33
these legal services to the community could you tell us more about your crucial part in Arch's
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Mission yes absolutely so uh my official title I am the bilingual staff lawyer so
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that means I can provide uh services in English and in French um which we have
11:55
found is very very crucial even though we are based in Ontario there is a a big number of frankophones that live
12:02
in Ontario so um so I do we do provide you know
12:08
that that dual um those dual Services um
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and as a staff lawyer know I we I basically work on every single aspect of
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our transmission in a different way um we are a smaller smaller team but we all
12:27
kind of contribute you know on different work and different files and cases so
12:32
that includes you know representing people in their in their case at either a tribunal or a court uh providing the
12:40
legal legal advice to persons directly about their issues
12:46
um presenting uh workshops rights workshops directly to persons with
12:52
disabilities or to organizations you know to bring that awareness as well um
12:58
and we also I also work um as well on on some lower form projects that we have
13:04
going on in that sense yeah that's great that's great and and
13:11
having mentioned the whole bilingual side of it I'm going to let our our our
13:17
listeners know that we're going to be redoing this episode in French so they'll they'll also have access to it
13:23
in French so thank you for that but it's a good I'll plug in our next episode so
13:30
while we're doing the English one just so our English listeners could let their French counterparts know that we'll also
13:36
be covering these questions in French which is great for our community and great for our listeners as well
13:43
so uh as you know the Environmental Health Association of Canada our our main focus is
13:50
MCS uh multiple chemical sensitivity and uh MCS is recognized as
13:56
a disability under the Canadian Human Rights Act could you break down what this means for
14:01
people living with MCs in terms of their legal protections and rights I know you
14:07
had mentioned there's a distinction between Canadian and Ontario Human
14:12
Rights but if you could just fill us in the best way you can absolutely
14:17
absolutely and thank you for that um so yeah I do want to first start off with
14:23
with making that distinction um between the Canadian Human Rights Act and
14:29
provincial human rights laws um I will obviously focus on
14:34
Ontario um so in Ontario we have the Human Rights Code um which is very
14:42
similar to the king Human Rights Act the difference between those two
14:47
laws um is basically where which which um which law
14:55
would apply to your situation depending on what you're dealing with so what I
15:01
mean by that is that there are certain things um that or certain situations or
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areas that um fall under what we call the jurisdiction of one type of law versus
15:18
the jurisdiction of another type of law and we talk a lot like what we mean by
15:24
that is really about federal laws versus a provincial law so the Canadian Human Rights Act is
15:31
really only about what is federally regulated or falls under the federal
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jurisdiction uh so that means essentially you know any dealings you have with uh federal agencies like
15:45
Service Canada for example uh Banks is uh is also a big one that falls under
15:51
the Canadian Human Rights Act um and um I mentioned this a bit earlier uh but uh
15:57
Federal Transportation like VIA Rail ples um and yes some buses that if they
16:05
cross over between one Province to another that would fall also under Federal jurisdiction whereas provincial
16:12
jurisdiction and what would fall under the Human Rights Code of Ontario is
16:18
basically whatever is um whatever Falls you know under the
16:24
provincial government kind of control so for the most part it's basically
16:30
everything else that's not federal right so your housing for example uh going to
16:36
the doctor issues with the doctor's office um services that you receive when
16:42
you go to the store uh or when you're going to the restaurant um Municipal buses right um
16:51
and schools uh most jobs would fall under the the provincial as well unless
16:58
work at a bank or a federal agency so so really those are two different laws that
17:06
is important legally in the sense of where you're going to file a complaint
17:12
if you need to file a complaint but essentially both laws pretty much are
17:19
are very closely identical in terms of the rights and protections that it brings to
17:26
people um so so I just wanted to make clear about that distinction before we
17:32
get into you know what are the legal protections and rights for for persons
17:37
living with MCS um so essentially MCS is recognized
17:45
under human rights laws as being a disability uh is recognized as being a
17:51
disability so what that means is that uh under human rights law there are certain
17:56
uh protections that come into place um for for someone with a
18:02
disability such as MCS um
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and both the K Human Rights Act and the Ontario Human Rights Code
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um are really focused on what we call specific social areas what that means is
18:22
that the legal protections that the those two laws have
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are not necessarily for every single aspect of someone's life um but it's really focused on
18:36
specific social areas where there is a relationship between the person and the party that is violating their human
18:45
rights um some examples of the social areas that or people living with
18:52
MCS um are protected or have protections and rights uh we talk about services
19:00
employment um housing um uh
19:07
education um and these are just some of the examples that of the social areas where where you would have but there has
19:13
to be some some relationship between between the two parties and I'm I'm
19:18
saying this because um I do want to maybe just specify further that you know
19:26
um if you are walking down the street and you're being discriminated against
19:32
by a random person um that is just a passer by on
19:38
the sidewalk you pass them by they tell you some kind of of comment or
19:45
or they treat you differently in most situations you know
19:50
that would necessarily bring uh you would necessarily be able
19:56
to bring a human rights complaint against that stranger that you're just walking down the street with right which is different than if
20:02
you're going to a restaurant and a restaurant uh employee or or manager
20:08
whoever that working at that restaurant denies you the right to to go in right
20:14
or doesn't accommodate you or says you can't come in because you have a disability that situation you would have
20:21
um you know that that relationship with with the restaurant and have some
20:27
protections right to the right of access to to their services so essentially what it means
20:35
you know that MCS is recognized under human rights law as being a disability
20:41
that there is some Protections in place uh such as the protection against being
20:47
discriminated against um you know having any ableist comments or or or some
20:54
mistreatment because of your disability and also includes uh the
21:00
right to to get accommodations um from the other party
21:06
uh that that you would need because of your disability in order to access
21:11
either the service or to in your in terms of uh to
21:17
be able to work at your place of employment for example as well so um and
21:24
I believe we we'll probably be able maybe to get into it a bit a bit later on but uh but there is those two big
21:31
rights right there for for persons living with MCS um that comes with being recognized
21:37
as as a disability under human rights laws okay and what about like could you
21:47
say anything about the right to Safe accessible air for people with
21:52
MCS uh sure I could I could maybe say a few comments about about the right to
21:58
safe accessible air um so essentially
22:03
this is you know something that is very important in in human rights law um and
22:10
that does bring in you know the the whole idea of um of Universal Design and
22:18
um the fact that that people living with MCS you know can can
22:24
really enter or or go through any any area um or any any place in in society
22:31
where where they would have you know they wouldn't have to worry about
22:37
whether the scent-free policy is being followed or not followed because there is you know that that accessibility
22:44
already in place um right then for for them without having to ask for it um so
22:53
it kind of goes a bit further than the right to be accommodated in the sense of you know it's
23:00
like Society taking a proactive measure right in universally
23:07
designing the places the the the society or or the uh different different aspects
23:14
um to kind of preempt um that kind of of accommodation
23:20
and just ensuring that it is universally accessible in the same way that um that
23:27
there are you know automatic doors or or ramps right that is basically you don't
23:33
need to ask for it because it's something that that should already be be
23:38
there as an accessibility um measure exactly so this kind of covers
23:47
that that question about how it's such a crucial principle in human rights law to
23:53
have the right to Safe accessible air especially when talking about people uh
23:59
with MCS yeah absolutely so in terms of workplace
24:06
accommodations for people with MCS when it comes to the workplace what are the legal
24:12
responsibilities of employers to accommodate employees with MCS could you walk us through what the process looks
24:19
like to request and negotiate these accommodations sure sure uh so employers
24:27
have whether they're Federal employers provincial employers uh it doesn't matter they have the same legal
24:34
responsibilities um and and that is that they have what we call a duty to accommodate their
24:41
employees um including employees with MCS um that duty is to the only to the
24:48
point of undue hardship and I I could touch quickly on on what that means but just to focus on really the duty to
24:55
accommodate specifically right now um essentially what that is that if one of
25:01
their employees um has MCS U or is living with
25:07
MCS and um they require some accommodations uh due to their
25:14
MCS then the employer has to essentially provide you know the accommodations that
25:21
is needed um for that employee and that could come through in
25:27
a different in different ways um one of the of the
25:33
way that that could could essentially get started or or begin is if the
25:38
employee approaches the employer uh to say I need
25:45
accomodations because I have MCS or even just you could just say because I have a
25:52
disability um and then at that point once the employer is is aware is made
25:57
aware about that there may be some need for
26:02
accommodations uh that triggers their duty to accommodate um and I'll go through you know what that process looks
26:10
like or what happens after they become aware but just before that I do want to
26:16
also um Talk a bit about a different way that that duty to accommodate can be
26:22
triggered which is essentially that the employer kind of suspects that there may
26:28
be a need for accommodations um with for one of their employees and then they approach or they
26:35
they ask that employee if they need accommodations so that's what we call in human rights law the duty to
26:42
inquire so regardless of how it starts whether it's the employee that approaches the employer first or uh or
26:51
the employer is inquiring or investigating about whether or not there is an accommodation need once that is
26:58
triggered um or that's discussed then the the employer has to do has to
27:05
conduct what we call an accommodation process um and that could look a little
27:11
bit different from employer to employer obviously but but essentially what the accommodation process is more in in
27:19
general terms is that um one the employer has to figure out or
27:27
or with the employee what the disability related needs are um in most situations the employee
27:35
doesn't have to necessarily disclose the nature of their disability uh but there may be
27:42
situations uh where that would be required uh for example in situations
27:49
where um where the employer needs to get some extra funding right to to
27:55
accommodate and to get that funding you have to confirm that you have that disability right those may be
28:01
some one example among many others that maybe uh may have a requirement for the
28:07
employee to disclose the nature of their disability but um the employer can't
28:14
force you know in most situations they can't force the employee to disclose the nature of their disability what they the
28:21
employer can do um is that they and they
28:26
need to do this basically is to to have the employee
28:32
um or to to ask the employee what are the disability related needs so in cases
28:38
of employees with MCS a lot of times that would be a s-free environment you
28:44
know um and there may be other other situations other examples of
28:50
accommodations but you know um just for time sake I I'll focus on on the sfree
28:55
environment as an accommodation um so the employer can sometimes ask for
29:03
additional medical information uh about those needs or about what kind of accommodations to meet those needs um
29:11
and that's perfectly fine and unless it's an unreasonable uh request it's you know
29:18
employees should you know at least uh cooperate with the employer with some
29:23
information because all this is really to for the for them to better understand
29:28
what the needs are in order to better accommodate the person now employees
29:34
don't necessarily have to tell the employer exactly what the accommodation is or what the solution is um that is on
29:43
the employer to to figure out but a lot of times and persons living with with
29:49
MCS already know what accommodation they would require and that's perfectly fine
29:54
if you want to to tell the employer uh like this is the accommodation that I
29:59
would need um just I'm just mentioning all this because you know there are
30:06
there may be some of you that um may not know what accommodation should be in
30:12
place you know what your needs are but not what accommodation should be in place um
30:17
and um the employer cannot say well we're not going to
30:24
accommodate you because you didn't tell us what the accommodation you needed that's not on the employee to tell
30:30
that's that's the employer to figure out what accommodation should be in place
30:36
so there's there would be some requests for for additional information if needed
30:42
um a lot of times there are meetings between the employer and employee um for unionized employees
30:51
there there may be an additional process in place um at Arch we don't uh we don't
30:58
advise uh PE unionized uh employees so I won't be able to tell you specifically
31:04
what their process is but just if you have a union then I think the first step would be to to speak with your union
31:10
representative about about that if there's anything else you need to do um and then once the employer gathers
31:19
all the information from you they may also want to they may also consult um some experts or some
31:26
organizations of course it would require your consent for the most part uh so you
31:32
would be aware of that uh but once they get all the information and then they figure out okay this is the
31:38
accommodation we could provide then they they would let you know or or give you
31:44
an accommodation plan in writing um and um and then the next step
31:51
after that would be for the employer to actually implement the accommodation plan or implement the accommodation that they
31:58
said that they will do for you um now after all that is said and
32:03
done uh and you have the accommodation plan that doesn't mean that the employer
32:09
no longer has responsibilities um they have an ongoing duty to
32:16
accommodate as long you know during your entire the entire uh employee employer
32:23
relationship what this means is that just because they did one accommodation
32:28
plan if it's either not working if that plan is not working or
32:34
there needs to be some changes to that plan whether to add more accommodations
32:39
remove some or change the ones that they had already put in place then the
32:45
employer has to basically check in right with you or you you can also let them
32:53
let your employer know um that you need to review the accom a plan um but there
33:00
is that ongoing you know responsibility to ensure that the accommodation plan is
33:07
still okay or you know is there any changes that needs to be made and then if there is then the accommodation
33:14
process kind of starts all over again in terms of they need to gather the information need to figure out what the
33:21
the new accommodation should be and then draft the plan um
33:28
so so essentially um you know what's really important is that the employer
33:34
really understands what the employees needs related to MCS are um
33:44
and and that's something the employee can can tell the employer um and just
33:49
before um just one last thing to wrap up this question um is
33:56
that employers need to understand that
34:01
every person has individual needs every person even any you could have 10
34:08
employees with MCS doesn't necessarily mean it would be 10 identical
34:14
accommodation plans everyone has individualized needs um so uh just
34:20
because you're an employer tells their employee well this is what we're doing for all situations where uh
34:27
accommodations related to MCS if you have other needs as well or
34:34
need a different kind of accommodation then you know the employer still has that duty to accommodate your
34:41
individual needs specifically yeah and I I
34:48
imagine people with with MCS because they have so many different uh symptoms and different
34:55
conditions and different needs of accom a they must face uh a lot of challenges
35:02
right so what are the most common challenges people with MCS face at work
35:08
and what could organizations employ employers do to break down those barriers and make
35:15
workplaces more accessible yeah absolutely there are so
35:20
many challenges uh that people in MCS face um at the
35:26
workplace um I think one of the more common ones that we hear a lot about is that a sfree
35:34
policy is not being followed by by their colleagues by other
35:39
employees um if it's a a workplace that's open to the public by members of
35:45
the public um you know it's not always necessarily a sentre policy that's not
35:50
followed by the employer but by other people in the workplace uh which is a huge challenge I
35:56
think with with the particularly with those kind of policies um there are also you
36:04
know a lot of of barriers in terms of of what we call an attitudinal barrier like
36:12
really where or the employer may not believe that the person has MCS or or
36:19
believe that there's accommodations I think that's still a more
36:25
um a wides spread maybe just like ideology issue right in terms of really
36:32
I don't know if the if the law could could change that it's really more of a society issue but but that is a
36:38
challenge though I I still want to mention that that makes it that there's barriers for for persons with with
36:45
MCS uh when they're trying to get accommodations um there is also
36:52
um some barriers put up in place where where the employer would be asking for way too much medical
36:59
information um with regards to to their MCS um or the employees um medical
37:08
condition or or mcf Bas specifically um and that can put a lot of barriers as well and challenges for
37:15
for the employee in terms of trying to they're trying to get accommodations um and the employer keeps
37:21
asking for more and more information and it could be problematic for many
37:27
many many reasons you know that repeated request one it delays you know getting
37:33
the accommodation in place right um sure we can all agree that it's not uh that
37:41
quick to get you know medical information from from your doctor um or
37:47
if you're seeing a specialist it takes time so that delays even further the accommodation process but also there is a privacy
37:55
aspect to it uh employer don't necessarily need or should
38:00
have that much information about your your medical history or anything like
38:06
that what the employers have to do or or are allowed to have is strictly Li
38:13
limited to what uh is related to the dis the the
38:19
disability needs right it's not about you know what happened seven years ago when you went
38:26
to the doctor or went to the ER really just about what are your dispill related
38:31
needs at work and that needs to be accommodated
38:36
and it's information about that um and as well you know asking for for too much
38:42
medical information is also a challenge in terms for people who may not have family doctors or may not have access to
38:48
to that kind of um medical expertise to be able to provide that
38:55
information um and and also so for for persons living with with MCS there
39:01
is um a very distinct challenge or or
39:07
even a barrier um where it's almost like they have to quote unquote test an
39:15
accommodation to see if they'll be triggered so it's like almost almost having them to to be
39:22
forced to be triggered uh and have a reaction to see if the employ is properly accommodating
39:29
them or not which which is a huge challenge um for for people living with
39:36
with MCs in that sense as well um so I think one of the the main
39:43
things um beyond beyond the legal responsibilities you know in terms of
39:50
what an employer should or shouldn't do um under human rights laws um on the
39:57
more practical sense I think to to break down these barriers and making their workplaces more
40:04
accessible um I think it's really important that there is education uh about human rights laws
40:11
about legal responsibilities about MCS um in the workplaces right so by the
40:18
organizations that they become aware of exactly you know what what it means to
40:24
to accommodate people and to and what it what are the barriers and how you know
40:29
that they're facing in their own organization that they may or may not be aware of it
40:35
necessarily so I think that will probably be the biggest thing that that people could do yeah yeah and I mean we
40:44
we see it more and more nowadays where these big institutions are starting to adopt scent or fragrance-free policies I
40:52
mean it's not entirely widespread just yet but it's starting to to come into
40:58
the general the general population and then especially in big public places
41:04
like certain certain hospitals certain clinics have started to uh put up
41:10
sentree policies uh I know some some major banks have also started to
41:18
implement but like you said if everybody doesn't feel like not wearing
41:24
fragrance that causes its own its own uh problems and someone with MCS
41:30
has to test is someone actually you know wearing something or is something in the
41:37
office causing me to have a reaction so it's it's like asking someone who's in a
41:43
wheelchair to try try the stairs you know it's uh it's exactly you know
41:50
absolutely and we would never do that but that's what I think people need to
41:55
start understanding about MCS and and um and multiple chemical sensitivities you
42:03
know absolutely so yeah oh go ahead oh I
42:08
was just gonna just gonna add to that like you know um it's I do I do want to recognize of course there are it's
42:15
becoming more and more common uh to have these Sentry policies uh and you know
42:20
it's not the same situation that it was many many years ago for sure uh there
42:26
are still barriers but but definitely you know there is has been some progress over over the years oh yeah for
42:34
sure and I mean Center fragrance F policies could play a big role in
42:40
supporting people with MCS how should workplaces go about creating and
42:46
enforcing these policies and what could they do to make sure employees understand and follow
42:53
them yeah um so it's a bit of a of a trick question for for me as a staff
42:59
floor at Arch and and I'm going to explain why um essentially we uh so at
43:05
Arch we we do advise employees who are non-unionized um but we really focus on
43:13
on the employee side of of things uh so we don't
43:18
necessarily provide advice to to workplaces and organizations about how
43:25
they can do their own policies the reason for that is and this is just really a role with related to lawyers
43:32
right we don't want to be put in a conflict yeah um of course yeah so so we
43:37
wouldn't be able to we don't tell people specifically how uh or don't tell
43:42
employers how to do their job uh or how to write their policies um I do want to
43:49
say one thing and I think I repeated probably a few times now but if I could say one General message that employers
43:56
have to remember their duty to accommodate their employees with MCS that is the main thing however that
44:02
looks like that needs to happen um and in Ontario specifically there the
44:08
Ontario Human Rights Commission does have some resources for employers um
44:13
that they could could look at and I I can imagine that you know in other provinces they they may also have
44:20
something similar or hopefully they have something similar I can't confirm it but at the very least in Ontario there is um
44:27
the enta Human Rights Commission that provides some information for employers
44:33
uh regarding you know send free policy specifically as well
44:38
so that'd be a good resources for people yeah and I know you mentioned undo
44:46
hardship and in accommodation uh a few times earlier um
44:53
but I do have a note here that uh to ask you about under the Canadian Human Rights Act
45:00
accommodations are required unless they cause undue hardship how do we Define
45:05
undo hardship in cases of MCS and what factors come into play when determining
45:12
whether an accommodation is too difficult or expensive to provide yeah so so one do hardship um
45:21
again whether it's under the K Human Rights Act or uh the Ontario's Human Rights Code it's the same
45:27
so okay uh so just so everyone is um is on the same page about that um undo
45:36
hardship is really is is the a limit to the duty to accommodate in a sense and
45:42
I'll I'll explain a bit what that what I mean by that uh but first what when we talk about something that undo hardship
45:50
or an accommodation that is undo hardship we're talking about an accommodation that is excessively costly
45:59
including you know after considering if there's any outside source of funding
46:05
available um or that the accommodation um could bring um health
46:12
and safety concerns uh in one way or another
46:18
so I'm going to talk first about generally you know what what that could look like in terms of the duty to
46:24
accommodate uh and then I'll I'll speak more specifically to um MCS um but more generally when we talk
46:32
about costs uh it's not just the fact that something will cost the company or
46:39
the service provider or whoever is providing the accommodation uh that will cost them some money because that's a given it's
46:46
going to cost for the most part it's going to cost money there are some accommodations that cost nothing but
46:52
some of them cost um that's not undo hardship just because
46:57
your organization has to spend something some money it has to be some um a cost
47:05
that is so excessive that essentially
47:11
essentially would go to the core of the business operation of of the actual uh
47:19
organization that there really is nothing in the budget to to cover this
47:26
um so so it's really you know it's a case-by case situation there's no magic
47:31
number um you know what's undo hardship because of cost for a mom and pop shop
47:38
may not be the same amount for a multinational company right um so so
47:46
it's really you know specifically in that sense and and health and safety concerns I mean that's
47:54
um that's also a case by by case uh whether there's health and safety concerns related to providing the
48:01
accommodation or the accommodation itself um or in this situation is
48:07
bringing health and safety concerns that cannot be uh that would cause really
48:12
that undue hardship to to the organization or service
48:17
provider um so even if an
48:24
organization can successfully claim or claims even undo hardship and to say
48:32
then that well this is undue hardship for us we cannot accommodate you that's
48:38
not necessarily true it does not just because something is undo hardship or reaches the point of undo hardship that
48:46
does not necessarily mean that the organization service provider whoever no
48:53
longer has a duty to accommodate what they do have to do is that they have to
48:59
find or they have to try to find an alternative an alternative accommodation
49:04
that would not reach the point of undo hardship that but will still meet the
49:09
needs of the person so um so just because something
49:15
is undo hardship that is not the end all and be all of the person's duty to
49:20
accommodate now in terms of specifically cases um uh for a person's with
49:27
MCS um it's still the same the same you know either it's cost or health and
49:33
safety concern that would be considered undo hardship um so it's still those are
49:39
still the considerations and factors that they that needs to be taken into account in terms of accommodating that
49:46
person um now and we're talking specifically about undo hardship as as
49:53
that limit uh as opposed to maybe some other specific um potential limits or
50:01
potential challenges which I can talk briefly about as well afterwards um you know it's
50:11
really whether or not an accommodation is too difficult to provide um and you
50:19
know I'm thinking again of of sentre policies um that's not a factor that would not be
50:26
considered undo hardship something that's too difficult is not undo hardship the organization may try to
50:32
make it seem like it is but that is not the test um it's really just is it
50:38
excessively costly is there any health and safety concerns that's what under hardship is um and if they're saying
50:45
it's costly then they have to they have to show it uh they can't just say that
50:52
there's going to be a cost like if I could say an example of uh um replacing
50:58
the cleaning products in that are used to clean an office uh to so that it's
51:05
scent free or fragrance free or chemical free as opposed to what's been you used
51:10
before sure that's going to cost money obviously
51:16
but but is that undo hardship is that excessively costly and that's has
51:23
nothing to do with the fact of whether or not it's expensive it doesn't matter matter if it's expensive it just matters
51:28
if it's excessive cost to that creates an
51:34
undo hardship in terms of really really going to the core of the budget of the
51:39
organization and that's pretty rare that that's where I could see that actually
51:45
happening um there are in in terms of of you know in cases of MCS there may be
51:54
other considerations or other things that may come into play uh that may be
51:59
um Beyond undo hardship because for the most part I think uh that's not
52:04
necessarily where where it lies um where the issues lie is mostly in terms of you
52:13
know um creating creating that space or
52:19
creating those um or trying to find a creative manner to accommodate the
52:26
person than the person's needs uh that could be you know uh I could use the
52:32
example of a doctor's office I think that might be the the more straightforward one I could think of
52:38
right now um a person living with MCS
52:43
needs to go uh have a doctor's visit it's in person at their office the
52:49
office may be sent free employees are sent free the doctor is sent free uh so
52:55
that that's all great but it's an office that's open to the public they may or may not be able to
53:02
always control who's coming into the office or who has been in the office right before the person uh before the
53:10
person's visit um so that person who's living with MCS may need some additional
53:17
accommodations Beyond just a sent fre policy um and because of the actions of
53:24
the members of the public right that the doctor may or may not I mean there are situations where they may have some
53:32
control but they may not have control all the time um and when I'm talking about control I'm talking about like legally
53:38
have control um so in that sense you know there could be it could be difficult right to to
53:47
accommodate that person in a to have a sentree environment when they go see the
53:52
doctor um so then there is that duty to accom accomodate from the doctor say
53:58
okay let's let's think about other ways that we could provide you with Medical
54:04
Services um in a way that will meet your needs and that you could be able to to
54:10
actually have have access to our office that could look like different different
54:16
ways I could give a few examples but but in no means are are my examples the the only ways because obviously as we
54:22
mentioned earlier everyone's individualized right their needs are individualized but um some example be if
54:31
they could be offered a virtual appointment uh that could be something that could that could work uh be the
54:39
that that person is the first patient in the morning before anyone else comes in
54:44
right that could also be um be a workable accommodation right so yeah so
54:50
there are ways around it that goes a bit beyond undo hardship uh itself but it's
54:55
important to know that there are some limits at times to to the D to
55:01
accommodate yeah that's uh that's some really great great information for for
55:08
our listeners um I know you've mentioned like um the doctor's
55:14
office and um public spaces so my next
55:19
question is more about addressing social isolation and Public Access so it's
55:24
completely related to what you were just just uh talking about like MCS could
55:30
create real barriers in participating in everyday activities like going to the
55:36
doctor uh writing public transit or socializing in public spaces what could
55:42
the law do better to ensure people with MCS could access these spaces without
55:49
discrimination yeah so so as the law stands right now um there's not much
55:57
or it's a bit difficult to legally enforce you know that kind of
56:04
um uh those kind of barriers or or to erase those kind of barriers um
56:11
but and and I've mentioned this a few times during our our conversation that
56:17
you know there are some difference between what is protected by the by human rights law and what isn't um but I
56:24
think in a more General sense um what the law in general could do
56:31
better or what you know could happen or should be happening is that there is uh
56:37
adopting this concept of Universal Design right uh accessibility laws that
56:43
are already in place or or maybe could be strengthened uh those can play a role
56:50
um in making Society public spaces more accessible in a a proactive way right
56:58
just like ensuring that buildings new buildings are always accessible right
57:03
they're built from the get-go um as being accessible before someone ask
57:08
that's a you know that's what Universal Design means right it's ensuring without having to be asked ensuring that the
57:15
space is accessible from the get-go and and that's where you
57:21
know that's probably where you know that that would be be a way to ensure that people living
57:29
with MCS can have access to those spaces without without facing
57:35
discrimination and it's may or may not necessarily be with through human rights law specifically just because they are
57:41
very focused on what areas that they can come in play u but accessibility laws
57:48
maybe a bit more General and bring in that uh that concept of Universal
57:54
Design yeah or even the way in most elementary schools they've
58:00
banned peanut products to protect children that have might have peanut
58:06
allergies or half peanut allergies so that kind of
58:12
enforcement has just kind of trickled down the whole line and now there's a
58:17
genuine respect of not bringing uh peanuts into a school
58:23
because it might harm somebody else so so I think these public spaces could
58:28
become sent free by policy and therefore if you're entering
58:35
a hospital or you're entering a clinic or you're entering a public transit and you're not allowed to to to wear a scent
58:44
or you know then it then it would truly become um a Universal Design you know
58:51
absolutely absolutely and in that sense it becomes more accepted right it takes time to to reach that level but but yeah
58:59
you're absolutely right now people are more not necessarily thinking they're allowed or not allowed but they are
59:06
aware that this can affect other people for example like your example of the P
59:13
you're aware that this can affect other people so I don't want to to bring that
59:18
into that space just in case and that's you know through Universal Design through the policies while it's being
59:24
more and more accepted um that there's a hope that that could be brought into to people's minds as
59:33
well yeah and and and as you mentioned earlier educating right educating is always the the most widespread way to to
59:40
get something known absolutely absolutely so in terms of advocacy and
59:50
legal resource if someone with MCS feels their rights are being aren't being
59:55
respected whether in the workplace housing health care what legal options do they have to
1:00:02
stand up for themselves and get the accommodations they need
1:00:08
so just in case you know this may not have been that the person hasn't done
1:00:13
this yet I think that if they're being denied uh an accommodation request
1:00:20
or or they feel like they're being discriminated against then if they have haven't done
1:00:26
so yet to just ask them to um ask to speak to someone who's in
1:00:33
charge right uh at the workplace would be you know if it's your employee that
1:00:39
is causing these these issues um for example then speak to the employer or
1:00:45
someone you know HR local HR or whoever uh in
1:00:50
healthcare uh speaking to the receptionist they don't want to accommodate there is someone high up uh
1:00:57
and sometimes you know that that could resolve it quickly um but in terms of you know if you are
1:01:07
still if the person is still not getting the accommodations or they're being discriminated against I think the number
1:01:13
one thing is to speak to a lawyer right about your specific situation um because some of times it
1:01:20
could be simply the option would be to uh make a formal complaint uh there may
1:01:27
be some places that have complaint mechanism already in place uh for example you know in healthcare they have
1:01:35
colleges of Physicians for example um and um that that may be a
1:01:42
proper Avenue to um to make a complaint not always but there are situations that
1:01:49
could be a situation other times it would be to file a human rights complaint against service provider or
1:01:57
your employer um but uh so there could be a
1:02:02
different complaint mechanism or processes to to that you could take um
1:02:10
really depends on on each situation a lot of the times it would probably be a human rights complaint uh whether if
1:02:17
it's in Ontario and under provincial jurisdiction that would be a complaint
1:02:23
at the human rights tribunal of Ontario at the federal level which is any place that is under
1:02:30
the Kean Human Rights Act jurisdiction that would be a complaint at the Canan Human Rights Commission which is also a
1:02:37
tribunal but um or part of a tribunal but it's uh a different one and it's at
1:02:43
the federal level um and those complaints are essentially it's like bringing a lawsuit
1:02:50
basically but it's in the human rights context um there are other op options
1:02:56
that in other situations that it may be an internal complaint that needs to
1:03:01
happen um because of that particular area right like I talk a little bit
1:03:07
about Healthcare there may be potentially um a situation where a human
1:03:13
rights complaint may not be the right way to go it may be through a different
1:03:19
complaint mechanism uh that is in place and specific to healthc care for example
1:03:25
so all that to say is that um the first thing I maybe to think of
1:03:32
is to to talk to a lawyer um especially with many complaints that including
1:03:38
human rights complaint there may be some limitation period which means that there are deadlines of when you can file uh so uh
1:03:47
so it's important to you know so that if you file after that deadline uh and the deadlines are
1:03:54
different in every single type of complaint process but if you file after
1:03:59
that deadline you may not be able to to make a com a formal complaint and it may
1:04:05
be rejected just because it's what we call out of time so consult a lawyer
1:04:11
soon as possible about your specific situation they could give you very specific options to your
1:04:18
situation um and there may be also situations that the option is your legal
1:04:25
option is not necessarily to file a human rights complaint or file a complaint somewhere else it may be that
1:04:32
okay no actually right now you need to go you need to get to try get mean with
1:04:38
this person and that person because you're still need to go through the accommodation process right there are
1:04:44
times where um where someone is in the middle of the
1:04:50
accommodation process but but may feel like they're not not um
1:04:57
it's not progressing or that you know it's not going fast enough uh
1:05:05
they're they're still consulting or they're asking too many questions right but that doesn't always necessarily mean
1:05:12
um that's a human rights complaint sometimes it's just part of the accommodation process and before filing
1:05:19
a human rights complaint generally you have to you know see through that that process to some extent
1:05:27
um if you are a person with MCS living in Ontario um and you have uh and your
1:05:35
issue is an issue that happened in Ontario uh then you could also contact arch for for free legal advice um for
1:05:44
for your situation uh we're happy to to take that um to take your call and to to
1:05:51
talk to us there's were several lawyers here that uh we could do that
1:05:56
um and I'm happy to you know if Poss I could provide our phone number um or
1:06:03
whether it's on on the website or or available for people to to contact us um
1:06:09
if you're in another um Province then um
1:06:14
then you would probably need to to contact the lawyer from from that practicing in that Province um and if you are an employee
1:06:22
who is part of a union and your issu is related to your workplace then contact
1:06:28
your union rep your union representative representative for for advice because
1:06:34
they're there to or they should be there to to help you if you are being discriminated or not gain the
1:06:40
accommodations at work specifically if you're not unionized and you're in Ontario then you could we could give
1:06:47
some advice from that perspective as well yeah well yeah that's that's one
1:06:54
thing I was going to say say it's great that in Ontario um people with disabilities have
1:07:01
uh the resource of having some free legal advice uh I'm sure in different
1:07:08
provinces they have they have different law firms that also offer the same uh resources because obviously
1:07:15
sometimes people that face these situations don't necessarily have the means or the funds to be able to afford
1:07:22
uh a lawyer but um I'm sure we could we could provide on our end as well fine
1:07:28
for each province which uh which Association or if you're familiar with
1:07:34
any we could also list them uh on our website but obviously I'll I'll also post your information on the screen when
1:07:42
you mentioned it so at least people could have uh access to Arch disability
1:07:48
especially if they're in Ontario and uh in terms of final thoughts uh lla thank you so much for
1:07:55
for sharing your insights today it was really great this conversation has been really valuable to our community before
1:08:03
we wrap up is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners uh yeah no first off I want to
1:08:09
thank you for the opportunity and and for inviting us to to speak today um I
1:08:14
know that we talked about a lot of things a lot of information for people
1:08:20
um I think if I could sum it up in like three points uh for people to just if
1:08:26
you're G to take anything like three points only to from from our conversation today is remember MCS is a
1:08:34
disability that's recognized under human rights laws that means that there are legal rights that exist and protections
1:08:42
that you have including protection against discrimination because of
1:08:47
MCS um and the right to to get accommodations for for any needs you
1:08:53
have uh related to MCS um and the second point is if you are
1:09:02
not sure what to do if you know you're trying to get accommodations from your employer for
1:09:09
example the employer is telling you XY Z you don't know what that means contact
1:09:15
the lawyer um you know they would be just they'll be able to tell you
1:09:21
specifically in your situation what what to do next you know um it doesn't
1:09:28
matter um if you know you're at the beginning of of the accommodation
1:09:34
process and you're not sure how to proceed or you're in the middle of it you don't know what's going on or what
1:09:40
to do next or you've been denied and you want to know what you know where to file
1:09:45
a complaint you know it's better to to ask the question so that you know your
1:09:51
rights in your particular situation um and finally if you are specifically
1:09:57
living in Ontario and of course the issue happens in Ontario then you can
1:10:03
contact Arch uh for free legal advice um and in other provinces um uh as you
1:10:11
mentioned Marco there there is uh probably other kinds of resources that
1:10:17
hopefully could also be available if you are residing in in those provinces as well so I think
1:10:23
really really remember there are rights that that people living with MCS that they have under human rights law and um
1:10:32
and it's important to to to be aware and and if you don't if you're not sure then
1:10:38
then ask a lawyer yeah well thank you so much Lea this uh I'm sure our listeners
1:10:45
will have a lot of information to go through and you know that's that's the beauty of podcast they could always
1:10:52
pause rewind relisten and uh again thank you so much uh from the parts of the
1:11:00
Environmental Health Association of Canada and the Environmental Health Association of Quebec thanks for tuning
1:11:07
in to this episode of footprints and impacts if you found value in today's conversation be sure to subscribe leave
1:11:13
a comment and share it with friends family and especially someone who might benefit don't forget to follow our
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upcoming episodes for more insights on sustainability Health inclusion and how
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1:11:30
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1:11:36
well this podcast is part of the empowering community and removal of barriers project funded in part by the
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